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What Did Ancient Egyptians Look Like? Part II.
Posted Nov 29,2008

EygyptskinThis painting by an ancient Egyptian artist shows Nubians bringing gold to the pharaoh. Obviously differences in skin color registered in the minds of ancient Egyptians, but what these differences meant and how they saw themselves is a subject of debate. Photograph by Kenneth Garrett, courtesy of the Supreme Council of Antiquities, Egypt.


I was already thinking about starting a new thread on ancient Egyptians when I received a comment that set the tone for where I wanted to go with the discussion. I've entered it here as the first comment in this new thread. (Those wishing to follow the earlier thread can find it posted January 14).

What this is all really about is human variation in ancient Egypt. Words like "black" and "white," which have been used a lot in the preceding thread, really don't have much meaning when it comes to understanding a population.  Here are a few thoughts to get the discussion going. These thoughts were pulled together by myself and some colleagues. We were assisted by S.O.Y. Keita (see our video of Dr. Keita), a scientist with keen insights into this topic and a fellow who is referred to several times in the first comment.


Egypt_skin

This sculpture from an Egyptian tomb is a good illustration of the problem in assuming that Egyptian artwork alone should guide us on what ancient Egyptians looked like. What would you say about the ethnicity of this Egyptian couple? They lived in the time of the great pyramid builders, about 2500 BC. Photo by Richard Nowitz.


Ancient Egypt: Origins in Space and Time
Some scholars continue to debate the skin color of ancient Egyptians, believing skin color can tell us something about the origins of Egypt’s culture and people. Most scientists agree that this region of Africa, the continent where modern humans evolved, was a melting pot of people for millennia. Human remains from the Nile Valley date back to between 30,000 and 50,000 before present.

Today, skin color is often used to group people irrespective of their language, culture, or national affiliations. To the best of our knowledge, skin color was not the primary factor of classification in ancient Egypt. Ancient Egyptians understood that culture, customs, and language play an important role in determining group affiliations. From artwork still visible in their temples and tombs, however, it is clear that the ancient Egyptians were aware of skin color differences within their own population and that they sometimes associated foreigners with particular skin colors.

Ancient Egyptians had their own ideas about where they came from and how their society achieved greatness. Today, scholars want to understand the origins and background of ancient Egypt and Egyptians using modern scientific and historical perspectives. This approach requires synthesizing evidence from geography, archaeology, linguistics, and biology.

Read the first comment and jump in!

Posted by National Geographic Staff | Comments (27)
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Chris Sloan
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

NOTE: THIS POST WAS SUBMITTED BY MR. MAN ON 11/27. IT WAS A COMMENT ON AN EARLIER THREAD ON THIS THEME.

The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians
Professor S.O.Y. Keita
Department of Biological Anthropology Oxford University

Professor A. J. Boyce
University Reader in Human Population Oxford University

What was the primary geographical source for the peopling of the Egyptian Nile Valley? Were the creators of the fundamental culture of southern predynastic Egypt—which led to the dynastic culture—migrants and colonists from Europe or the Near East? Or were they predominantly African variant populations? These questions can be addressed using data from studies of biology and culture, and evolutionary interpretive models. Archaeological and linguistic data indicate an origin in Africa. Biological data from living Egyptians and from skeletons of ancient Egyptians may also shed light on these questions. It is important to keep in mind the long presence of humans in Africa, and that there should be a great range of biological variation in indigenous "authentic" Africans. Scientists have been studying remains from the Egyptian Nile Valley for years. Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993). Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Ku****es, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans. Another source of skeletal data is limb proportions, which generally vary with different climatic belts. In general, the early Nile Valley remains have the proportions of more tropical populations, which is noteworthy since Egypt is not in the tropics. This suggests that the Egyptian Nile Valley was not primarily settled by cold-adapted peoples, such as Europeans. Art objects are not generally used by biological anthropologists. They are suspect as data and their interpretation highly dependent on stereotyped thinking. However, because art has often been used to comment on the physiognomies of ancient Egyptians, a few remarks are in order. A review of literature and the sculpture indicates characteristics that also can be found in the Horn of (East) Africa (see, e.g., Petrie 1939; Drake 1987; Keita 1993). Old and Middle Kingdom statuary shows a range of characteristics; many, if not most, individuals depicted in the art have variations on the narrow-nosed, narrow-faced morphology also seen in various East Africans. This East African anatomy, once seen as being the result of a mixture of different "races," is better understood as being part of the range of indigenous African variation. The descriptions and terms of ancient Greek writers have sometimes been used to comment on Egyptian origins. This is problematic since the ancient writers were not doing population biology. However, we can examine one issue. The Greeks called all groups south of Egypt "Ethiopians." Were the Egyptians more related to any of these "Ethiopians" than to the Greeks? As noted, cranial and limb studies have indicated greater similarity to Somalis, Ku****es and Nubians, all "Ethiopians" in ancient Greek terms. There are few studies of ancient DNA from Egyptian remains and none so far of southern predynastic skeletons. A study of 12th Dynasty DNA shows that the remains evaluated had multiple lines of descent, including not surprisingly some from "sub-Saharan" Africa (Paabo and Di Rienzo 1993). The other lineages were not identified, but may be African in origin. More work is needed. In the future, early remains from the Nile Valley and the rest of Africa will have to be studied in this manner in order to establish the early baseline range of genetic variation of all Africa. The data are important to avoid stereotyped ideas about the DNA of African peoples. The information from the living Egyptian population may not be as useful because historical records indicate substantial immigration into Egypt over the last several millennia, and it seems to have been far greater from the Near East and Europe than from areas far south of Egypt. "Substantial immigration" can actually mean a relatively small number of people in terms of population genetics theory. It has been determined that an average migration rate of one percent per generation into a region could result in a great change of the original gene frequencies in only several thousand years. (This assumes that all migrants marry natives and that all native-migrant offspring remain in the region.) It is obvious then that an ethnic group or nationality can change in average gene frequencies or physiognomy by intermarriage, unless social rules exclude the products of "mixed" unions from membership in the receiving group. More abstractly this means that geographically defined populat ions can undergo significant genetic change with a small percentage of steady assimilation of "foreign" genes. This is true even if natural selection does not favor the genes (and does not eliminate them). Examples of regions that have biologically absorbed genetically different immigrants are Sicily, Portugal, and Greece, where the frequencies of various genetic markers (and historical records) indicate sub-Saharan and supra-Saharan African migrants. This scenario is different from one in which a different population replaces another via colonization. Native Egyptians were variable. Foreigners added to this variability. The genetic data on the recent Egyptian population is fairly sparse. There has not been systematic research on large samples from the numerous regions of Egypt. Taken collectively, the results of various analyses suggest that modern Egyptians have ties with various African regions, as well as with Near Easterners and Europeans. Egyptian gene frequencies are between those of Europeans and some sub-Saharan Africans. This is not surprising. The studies have used various kinds of data: standard blood groups and proteins, mitochondrial DNA, and the Y chromosome. The gene frequencies and variants of the "original" population, or of one of early high density, cannot be deduced without a theoretical model based on archaeological and "historical" data, including the aforementioned DNA from ancient skeletons. (It must be noted that it is not yet clear how useful ancient DNA will be in most historical genetic research.) It is not clear to what degree certain genetic systems usually inte rpreted as non-African may in fact be native to Africa. Much depends on how "African" is defined and the model of interpretation. The various genetic studies usually suffer from what is called categorical thinking, specifically, racial thinking. Many investigators still think of "African" in a stereotyped, nonscientific (nonevolutionary) fashion, not acknowledging a range of genetic variants or traits as equally African. The definition of "African" that would be most appropriate should encompass variants that arose in Africa. Given that this is not the orientation of many scholars, who work from outmoded racial perspectives, the presence of "stereotypical" African genes so far from the "African heartland" is noteworthy. These genes have always been in the valley in any reasonable interpretation of the data. As a team of Egyptian geneticists stated recently, "During this long history and besides these Asiatic influences, Egypt maintained its African identity . . ." (Mahmoud et al. 1987). This statement is even more true in a wider evolutionary interpretation, since some of the "Asian" genes may be Africa n in origin. Modern data and improved theoretical approaches extend and validate this conclusion. In summary, various kinds of data and the evolutionary approach indicate that the Nile Valley populations had greater ties with other African populations in the early ancient period. Early Nile Valley populations were primarily coextensive with indigenous African populations. Linguistic and archaeological data provide key supporting evidence for a primarily African origin.

References Cited: Angel, J. L., and J. O. Kelley, Description and comparison of the skeleton. In The Wadi Kubbaniya Skeleton: A Late Paleolithic Burial from Southern Egypt. E Wendorf and R. Schild. pp. 53-70. Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press. 1986 Brauer, G., and K. Rimbach, Late archaic and modern Homo sapiens from Europe, Africa, and Southwest Asia: Craniometric comparisons and phylogenetic implications, Journal of Human Evolution 19:789-807. 1990 Drake, St. C., Black Folk Here and There, vol 1. Los Angeles: University of California. 1987 Keita, S.O.Y., Studies and comments on ancient Egyptian biological relationships. History in Africa 20:129-154. 1993 Mahmoud, L. et. al, Human blood groups in Dakhlaya. Egypt. Annah of Human Biology. 14(6):487-493. 1987 Paabo, S., and A. Di Rienzo, A molecular approach to the study of Egyptian history. In Biological Anthropology and the Study of Ancient Egypt. V. Davies and R. Walker, eds. pp. 86-90. London: British Museum Press. 1993 Petrie, W.M., F. The Making of Egypt. London: Sheldon Press. 1984 Thoma, A., Morphology and affinities of the Nazlet Khaterman. Journal of Human Evolution 13:287-296. 1984

Mr. Man
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

You it's pretty frustrating that on just about every National Geographic reenaction of the Ancient Egyptians all of this scientific evidence is ignored overlooked or ignored. Instead every single actor is someone of Middle Eastern descent rather than an Indigenous Northeast African which is what the evidence points much more closely to. IDK Chris do you know why this is?

chris sloan
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

Isn't there a question here about what an "indigenous Northeast African" looked like? And what is indigenous there? Folks from a million years ago? 20,000? 5,000? The point is that ancient Egyptians were indigenous and the indigenous population exhibited (and exhibits) a range of variation. Regarding NGS media, my guess is that there will be more effort to reflect that variation among ancient Egyptians in the future.

Mr. Man
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

Well Northeast Africa as a region consist of countires suchas Ethiopia, Somalia, Sudan, Egypt, Kenya, Eritrea. Ethiopians for one vary from tribe to tribe. A common misconception by early Anthropologist was that they attributted the varitations found in these populations (suchas Kinky hair, narrow noses, and thin lips)to non African admixtures, rather than accepting wide variation (the widest in the world) of indigenous Africans. Skin color in this region varries from the Jet black Sudanese to the brown-brownish red Ethiopians, just as it does in other African regions. Chris do you agree for the most part?

D. James
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

There is no question as to what an indigenous North East African looked like. Indigenous North East Africans have been black since the birth of humans in East Africa from over 100,000 years ago. The question is how much of a relationship was there between ancient North East Africans and the ancient Egyptians. If the ancient Egyptians were simply indigenous North East Africans then there would be no question as to whether they shared a similar range of features to other North East Africans, which included various shades of black skin. Of all things there definitely should be no question as to whether brown skin is indigenous to Africa and whether it is part of what we call black skin. North East Africans from Sudan to Ethiopia all exhibit variation in features and they are all black. But that is not the issue. The image of the Kushites at the beginning of this post shows this very clearly.

The actual question is whether the variation of skeletal features and remains show a pattern of indigenous African diversity in ancient Egypt versus a pattern of diversity resulting from non African migrations into the Egyptian Nile Valley. Either the ancient Egyptians were primarily indigenous North East Africans, like the Sudanese, Ethiopians and Somalis or they were a primarily mulatto and white population resulting from the migrations of non Africans into the Nile Valley. It can't be both. Terms like hybrid, other and unique only serve to hide the fact that what people really mean is mixed with non Africans to the point where their features were not like other North East Africans, or in other words not black. And this similar pattern of debate over indigenous African variation versus mixed African/Non African variation in ancient times also extends across all of North Africa. And sure, if such variation is the result of mixing between African/non African going back over 5,000 years, then of course you can say that such populations are indigenous, but they aren't aboriginal. There is no such thing as an aboriginal white person on the face of the planet and this is most certainly true in the Nile Valley.

Mr. Man
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

"A most recent 2008 Y-Chromosome study conducted in conjunction by Standford and the University of Khartoum, found relatively high frequencies of the haplogroup B-M60 in modern Copts, suggesting the population to represent a historical narrative for the peopling of Southern Egypt by Nilotic migrants from tropical Africa, during and preceding the period of state formation. These data are expected given numerous archaeological and historical findings that are overwhelmingly supportive of this scenario."

D. James
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

And if anything, if you want to understand how the ancient Egyptians viewed themselves versus other Africans, then you should show the images of the Egyptians from the tomb where the images of the Kushites came from at the top of the page. The tomb of Huy, where this image came from has more than Kushites in it and by looking at the WHOLE tomb, instead of bits and pieces of it, you will be able to get a better understanding of the ancient Egyptians and their views of the world.

Rebecca Reeder
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

Wow. One of the more intense ongoing conversations at "Stones, Bones, and Things", and I think Chris Sloan makes a good point: this article ended with the very question of appearance. This can't help but bring a smile to my face as I think of all the drawings of Jesus that have been in Sunday Schools for decades-- one of the palest white guys around; invariably had dishwater blonde hair. Jesus looks more like a guy from Sweden or the proverbial surfer-dude in Southern California, U.S.A. However, back to this post. The paintings and sculptures in Egyptian tombs show a variety of features and skin colors. There had to have been a melting pot effect!

Ausar
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

The problems with the whole debate is the academic dishonest and uneveness. During the 1800's through the early 60's there was a tendency of academics to lie about the origins of the ancient Egyptians. Many early Egypologist like Breated,Maspero and Sir Elliot Grafton Smith saw the anient Egyptians as a ''white'' race that has become mongrelized by African races south of the sahara.

The sins of the previous Egyptologist have been through adressed but simply glossed over. To rectify the entire debate we need all sides to be heard.

Many invoke modern Egytians but fail to realize that many have their own prejudice. Modern Egyptians are also the victims of 19th century racist. Most Egyptians,including the beloved Coptic Christians, were subject to racist writings.


All these subjects need to be properly adressed by academics and the sins of the past must be rectified.

Mr. Man
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

Ausar brings up a good point about modern Egyptians (i.e Zahi Hawass). He has a knack for making claims based on his own opinion and passing them off as facts.

It also seems like alot of people are loosing track of what this debate is actually about. No one is arguing that Ancient Egypt became a civilization with a great diversity of different kinds of people, But what is instead being argued is that the early dynasties of this Ancient African civilization was comprised primarily of indigenous African. This is becoming painfully obvious each year with every study that is published.

Hani El-Sakkout
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

To all those people out there who are trying to distance Modern Egyptians from Ancient Egyptians genetically, and find closer affinities to other populations.

The fact of life is that modern Egyptians will be more closely related genetically to ancient Egyptians than any other population in Africa or Europe.

This will be supported by genetic evidence as it arises.

The clues are there also in how ancient Egyptians depicted themselves (dark men, pale women, with features similar to modern Egyptian features), and how they depicted and stereotyped adjacent African and Asian populations.

No amount of debate will mask this fact, and as evidence arises, such debate will become less and less relevant.

Mr. Man
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

A 2004 study of the mtDNA of 58 native inhabitants from upper Egypt performed to indicate origins found a genetic ancestral heritage to East Africa, and another study links Egyptians in general with people from modern Eritrea and Ethiopia.

The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) diversity of 58 individuals from Upper Egypt, more than half (34 individuals) from Gurna, whose population has an ancient cultural history, were studied by sequencing the control-region and screening diagnostic RFLP markers. This sedentary population presented similarities to the Ethiopian population by the L1 and L2 macrohaplogroup frequency (20.6%), by the West Eurasian component (defined by haplogroups H to K and T to X) and particularly by a high frequency (17.6%) of haplogroup M1. We statistically and phylogenetically analysed and compared the Gurna population with other Egyptian, Near East and sub-Saharan Africa populations; AMOVA and Minimum Spanning Network analysis showed that the Gurna population was not isolated from neighbouring populations. Our results suggest that the Gurna population has conserved the trace of an ancestral genetic structure from an ancestral East African population, characterized by a high M1 haplogroup frequency. The current structure of the Egyptian population may be the result of further influence of neighbouring populations on this ancestral population.[4]

A 2007 study suggests overall population continuity over the predynastic and early dynastic periods with high levels of heterogeneity but concludes that Egyptian civilization was predominantly indigenous in development, with some, but limited migration from elsewhere.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=14748828

American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 2007. © 2007 Wiley-Liss, Inc. [
http://wysinger.homestead.com/zakrzewski_2007.pdf

Clyde
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

The Ancient and Modern Egyptians are considered to have the same ethnic break down-65% Arab Semitic White, 30% Black(mostly Nubian,some Nilotic), Black/Arab mix-King Tut and Anwar Sadat-see the following link to see what King Tut may have looked like TODAY, taken from life statues of him: http://naturescorner.wordpress.com/2008/12/13/where-the-ancient-egyptians-black-or-white/

-the Berbers and Moors are essentially Arabs with 8-15% Black heritage, the remaining 5 %, all other ethnicities.Afro centrists often attempt to portray the Black Nubians/Sudanese/people of Kemet as Ancient Egyptians.

Here is a link showing the Ancient and Modern Egyptians wer mostly Arab Semitic White genetically by DNA(haploid testing and the Y-chromosome: http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/history_in_africa/v032/32.1keita.pdf

Bottom line, the Ancient and Modern Egyptians were Semitic White with much Black Nubian admixture and a small amount of all other ethnicities.

The Ancient Egyptians, dark brown in skin color, saw themselves as DIFFERENT than the Black Nubians, black skin color, in the Ancient Egyptian Book of the Gates from a mural on Seti I's tomb-see the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Gates

Richard
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

To Clyde;

Ancient Egyptians were NOT a Semitic speaking people, and 'Arabs' as an ethnicitiy didn't even exist during pharaonic times! Also, Semitic is a language group that's part of the Afrasian language phylum which originates in Africa. As such, the earliest Semitic speakers were black and there are black populations aboriginal not only to Arabia but to other parts of Southwest Asia. By the way, you are only lying to yourself if you actually say King Tut looks 'Arab-mixed'. I'm sure you won't say that about any black person with his complexion and features.

Moors are black people also, as the name Moor is derived from the Greek word 'Maure' meaning black, and Europeans since Medieval times have made every effort to show this.
'Berber' is also a language group that's part of Afrasian and most Berber speakers (not just the Mediterranean coastal ones) are indeed black.

We already know that modern Egyptians predominantly carry African lineages such as E3b Y-chromosome lineages. Southwest Asians like 'Arabs' unsurprisingly (since their right next to Africa) also share such lineages.

Amenhotep III

http://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/pharaons/amenhotep3/photo/amenhotep3_head_03.jpg

King Tut

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eb5b63as1dLM/610x.jpg

Thutmosis IV:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/431864231_6dcca20338.jpg?v=0

Robert Vannrox
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

"...Ancient Egyptians had their own ideas about where they came from and how their society achieved greatness..."

Perhaps we should really consider their insight...

Paulie
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

@Mr. Man: Kenya is in Southeast Africa, not Northeast Africa. And Kenyans are Bantus & Nilotes with no connection whatsoever to Egyptians. The Oromos in northeastern Kenya that are distantly related to Egyptians are originally from Ethiopia, not Kenya. They migrated down to Kenya only a couple of hundred years ago.

Julian Mazur
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

The ancient Egyptians really looked down on the black Nubians contemptously calling them, "Troglodytes". King Senwosret III built a fort on the island of Uronarti on the Nile at the 2nd cataract which he called, "Repulse of the Troglodytes". Historians tell us there was no racism in the ancient world, but I wonder.
The ancient Egyptians were Caucasian, Semitic, Mid-Eastern white people. For example: look at the dead body of Queen Tiye. She had brown hair. The ancient Greeks and Romans called all people who lived south of Egypt as "Aethiopians" which means "BURNT FACES." Ancient Egyptians were never called that.
The statues of the Nubian Kings were always carved in dark grey granite and did not have the fake beards. Statues of Egyptian Pharaohs were NOT made like that.

Mr. Man
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

Paulie;

According to the National Geographics regional breakdown of the African continent Kenya is indeed geographically apart of Northeast Africa (which is what I was getting at)

http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/places/regions/region_northeastafrica.html

Julian Mazur- Interestingly enough you seem to forget that the Ancient Egyptians saw all foreigners (non Egyptians) "Black" and non Black as savages and enemies. Just like the Ancient Romans saw their Northwest European counterparts (they even built a wall to keep to out). Are we to assume that Romans weren't"white" based on that fact.

BTW are you talking about this queen

http://subtletys4u.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/queen_tiye_pic.218135122_std.jpg

Yeah the "caucasian features" really stand out (sarcasism)!

By the way Julian your claim that the Ancient Egyptians were " Caucasian, Semitic, Mid-Eastern white people" is flatlined by numerous studies which are sumarized in the opening post of new disscussion. Which instead proves that based on language, culture, limb proportions and crainia measurements that the early Ancient Egyptians cluster Primarily to fellow Northeast Africans which according to you includes the the "black Nubians", over any other group.

Richard
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

Chris something a bit hypocritical about one of your post and your position with in the National Geographic is that you stated how would we know if Ancient Northeast Africans were Black. Interestingly enough last years Febuary edition of the magazine had on the cover what (IMO) looked like a stereotypical "black" African (wide nose and thick lips) playing the part of the Nubians who are Northeast Africans (generally Narrow noses,thin lips)!

Now I'm getting at two things here.

One that there was no question about what color the Nubians (or Northeast Africans in general) were. when it came to the Febuary 08 edition of this magazine! They were simple "black" as put by this magazine. But now when the great Egypt comes into play simple "black" and "white" racial labels are too problematic. Despite the fact the evidence in the first post was readily available at the time this was published proving that the Ancient Egyptians were most similar to indigenous Northeast Africans there was still a profound effort to show the profound blackness found in Nubia that just wasn't present in Egypt (again this is just my interpretation of the situation).

Secondly that there was that there appeared to be no accurate focus on what indigenous Africans in that region looked like. Instead they were presented as stereotypical West African (or the debunked "True Negroid") look. Which is inaccurate to say the least. The studies presented above relate the Ancient Egyptians most closely not to West Africans or Europeans, But indigenous Northeast Africans Somalians, Ethiopians, ECT.. Yet it instead perpetuated that indigenous Africans have only one generic look, which is highly false.

Feel free to respond anyone.

Clyde
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

Richard, go to the following links as I gave above, for a more detailed answer including mummy DNA proof-most Arab Semitic White. You are wrong Ancient Egypt's base population was/is Arab Semitic White:
http://naturescorner.wordpress.com/2008/12/13/where-the-ancient-egyptians-black-or-white/

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/history_in_africa/v032/32.1keita.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Gates

Richard
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

Clyde your "sources" well.... lack sources to back their rediculous claims of a "arab semetic white" Ancient African civilization! Their is not a single study on that blog to back such a rediculous notion. The very first post on this blog however is a summarization of peer reviewed studies which prove that the Ancient Egyptians cluster promarily with other Northeast Africans, Rather you want to accept that or not.

Did YOU know however that;

The pyramid and sphinx builders were African. The foremost police forensic sketch artist in the country, the man responsible for the primary development of the facial composite system, concluded after a 1st hand visit, sketch and research that the features of the sphinx correlate completely with the face of a "black African" (as he termed the features). CONCLUSIVE.

In the Egyptian Book of the Dead only Egyptians and Nubians are granted access to the afterlife. All Asiatics and Libyans (Berbers) are automatically condemned by Ammit and have their hearts (souls) devoured. CONCLUSIVE. It seems to indicate original kinship with Nubians as opposed to Asiatics (which is supported by the evidence in the first post).

Osiris - A major Egyptian God and in mythology known as their first pharaoh, from whom all the original pharaohs were descended was called 'Kem Aur' - the great black. Not proof of anything, merely indicative. Why would Eurasian people call their first pharaoh "The great black"?

From the twelfth dynasty and the first invasion of the Hyksos, Egypt saw massive influxes of Eurasians into their region. CONCLUSIVE.

Egyptians compared to more Africans in Ramses II tomb

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/4571/ancientegyptianethnographicmur.jpg

Clyde
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

Richard,ONLY the Black Nubians and a smaller amount of Nilotics carry the Black E3b Y-chromosome haploid group. They are the minority of the Ancient and modern Egyptians, whom have Semitic Caucasian haploid markers.If you pick only Nubian skeletal measurements, you will get African heritage, but the pure Nubians(people of Kemit make up less than 30 % of Ancient and Modern Egyptians. If you take ALL genetic studies and anthropological measurements, the vast majority is Arab Semitic White. The Hamites, by most modern experts, now are believed to be a mix of Black and Arab Semitic White, much like the Berbers and Moors, whom are mostly Arab Semitic White with 8-15% Blacke genetic heritage. Do your research.

Clyde
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

Richard the lik you gave, was altered by an Afro centrist:
http://img81.exs.cx/img81/4571/ancientegyptianethnographicmur.jpg

Here is the correct link and it is NOT from Ramses II, but from Seti I- the "Book of the Gates", I mentioned at the following link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Gates

At least I actually look at YOUR links, but you don"t look at mime.

Lack of proof?-here is the genetic link I gave before-you have yet to provide ANY genetic links as well as the information you are providing is inaccurate at BEST. Please, note your errors,and do your research. The Egyptians with the thin narrow nose and thin lips are the Arab Semitic Whites, not the Black Nubians. I do have Black Nubian friends from Egypt-they prefer being called Nubians instead Of Egyptians like the majority Arab Semitic Whites-and they have the classical Black features.

You may find the following link of interest in clearing up your misconceptions- Mostafa Hefny is a Black Nubian Egytian living In Arab Semitic White Egypt. Because the US correctly identifies Egypt as Arab Semitic White, Mostafa Hefny , whom is Black Nubian, was classified as White upon immigrating to the US because he said he was Egyptian. He is involved in a lawsuit over it because BLACK NUBIAN EGYTIANS ARE NOT ARAB SEMITIC WHITE:

http://www.cnn.com/US/9707/16/racial.suit/

NileValleyPeoples
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

MODERN DNA AND SKELETAL RESEARCH SHOW THE EGYPTIANS TO BE AN AFRICAN POPULATION. SORRY TO SHATTER SO MANY DELUSIONS, BUT THIS IS MAINSTREAM ACADEMIC RESEARCH.


"Clines and Clusters"- show ancient Egyptians link more closely with Africans

CL Brace 1993:
http://www.geocities.com/nilevalleypeoples/truenegromodel.jpg

CL Brace 2005
http://www.geocities.com/nilevalleypeoples/brace2005a.jpg


DENTAL STUDIES SHOW ANCIENT EGYPTIANS HAD CONTINUITY AND CLOSER TO OTHER AFRICAN POPULATIONS THAN EUROPEANS OR MIDDLE EASTERNERS. THE ANCIENT BADARI ARE very REPRESENTATIVE OF THE ANCIENT EGYPTIAN POPULATION

QUOTE:

"Despite the difference, Gebel Ramlah [the Western Desert- Saharan region] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis, and Badari.."

the Badarians were a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like"

"A comparison of Badari to the Naqada and Hierakonpolis samples .. contradicts the idea of a foreign origin for the Naqada (Petrie, 1939; Baumgartel, 1970)"

Evidence in favor of continuity is also demonstrated by comparison of individual samples. "Naqada and especially Hierakonpolis share close affinities with First–Second Dynasty Abydos.. These findings do not support the concept of a foreign dynastic ‘‘race’’"

"Thus, despite increasing foreign influence after the Second Intermediate Period, not only did Egyptian culture remain intact (Lloyd, 2000a), but the people themselves, as represented by the dental samples, appear biologically constant as well."

(Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.)

EGYPTIANS CLOSER TO US BLACKS THAN WHITE EUROPEANS OR AMERICANS

QUOTE(s):
"We also compare Egyptian body proportions to those of modern American Blacks and Whites... Long bone stature regression equations were then derived for each sex. Our results confirm that, although ancient Egyptians are closer in body proportion to modern American Blacks than they are to American Whites, proportions in Blacks and Egyptians are not identical... Intralimb indices are not significantly different between Egyptians and American Blacks. ..brachial indices are definitely more ‘African’... There is no evidence for significant variation in proportions among temporal or social groupings; thus, the new formulae may be broadly applicable to ancient Egyptian remains." ("Stature estimation in ancient Egyptians: A new technique based on anatomical reconstruction of stature." Michelle H. Raxter, Christopher B. Ruff, Ayman Azab, Moushira Erfan, Muhammad Soliman, Aly El-Sawaf, (Am J Phys Anthropol. 2008, Jun;136(2):147-55

http://www.geocities.com/nilevalleypeoples/raxterrufftrinkhauscombo.jpg

LIMB PROPORTION STUDIES SHOW ANCIENT EGYPTIANS MORE LIKE AFRICANS THAN EUROPEANS OR MIDDLE EASTERN PEOPLE

QUOTEs:
"The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983).. This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations."
(Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.


DNA STUDIES ON THE Y-CHROMOSONE SHOW AFRICANS PEOPLES ARE TIED TOGETHER, REGARDLESS OF HOW THEY LOOK

But the Y-chromosome clade defined by the PN2 transition (PN2/M35, PN2/M2) shatters the boundaries of phenotypically defined races and true breeding populations across a great geographical expanse. African peoples with a range of skin colors, hair forms and physiognomies have substantial percentages of males whose Y chromosomes form closely related clades with each other, but not with others who are phenotypically similar. The individuals in the morphologically or geographically defined 'races' are not characterized by 'private' distinct lineages restricted to each of them." (S O Y Keita, R A Kittles, et al. "Conceptualizing human variation," Nature Genetics 36, S17 - S20 (2004)

"Recall that the Horn–Nile Valley crania show, as a group, the largest overlap with other regions. A
review of the recent literature indicates that there are male lineage ties between African peoples who have been traditionally labeled as being ‘‘racially’’ different, with ‘‘racially’’ implying an ontologically deep divide. The PN2 transition, a Y chromosome marker, defines a lineage (within the YAPþ derived haplogroup E or III) that emerged in Africa probably before the last glacial maximum, but after the migration of modern humans from Africa (see Semino et al., 2004). This mutation forms a clade that has two daughter subclades (defined by the biallelic markers M35/215 (or 215/M35) and M2)
that unites numerous phenotypically variant African populations from the supra-Saharan, Saharan, and sub-Saharan regions.."
(S.O.Y Keita. Exploring northeast African metric craniofacial variation at the individual level: A
comparative study using principal component analysis. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 16:679–689, 2004.)


PEOPLES FROM THE "DARKER" SOUTH CONQUERED OR ABSORBED THE NORTH

"Populations and cultures now found south of the desert roamed far to the north. The culture of Upper Egypt, which became dynastic Egyptian civilization, could fairly be called a Sudanese transplant." (Egypt and Sub-Saharan Africa: Their Interaction. Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa, by Joseph O. Vogel, AltaMira Press, Walnut Creek, California (1997), pp. 465-472 )


QUOTE(s):

"Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots. The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt. The ancient Egyptian language belonged to the Afrasian family (also called Afroasiatic or, formerly, Hamito-Semitic). The speakers of the earliest Afrasian languages, according to recent studies, were a set of peoples whose lands between 15,000 and 13,000 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west to far northern Somalia in the east. They supported themselves by gathering wild grains. The first elements of Egyptian culture were laid down two thousand years later, between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities expanded northward into Egypt, bringing with them a language directly ancestral to ancient Egyptian. They also introduced to Egypt the idea of using wild grains as food." (Christopher Ehret (1996) "Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture." In Egypt in Africa Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press)


"Ancient Egypt belongs to a language group known as 'Afro-Asiatic' (formerly called Hamito-Semitic) and its closest relatives are other north-east African languages from Somalia to Chad. Egypt's cultural features, both material and ideological and particularly in the earliest phases, show clear connections with that same broad area. In sum, ancient Egypt was an African culture, developed by African peoples, who had wide ranging contacts in north Africa and western Asia." (Morkot, Robert (2005) The Egyptians: An Introduction. Routledge. p. 10)

see:
http://www.geocities.com/nilevalleypeoples/quotes.htm

Common Sense
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

Clyde:
You do realize that all of your "evidence" is based mainly on modern Egyptians and their own interpretations of themselves (which of course would be affected by the major influx of fair skinned people, and those people's influence on the world, mutating the minds of many if not most to WANT to be more closely related to Caucasians than people of African ancestry) rather than the actual argument at hand, which is ANCIENT Egypt?

And you do realize that just saying "do your research" does not actually substitute for a real answer to Richard's charge, that your "sources" are not supported by reputable studies, correct?

Clyde, it's okay. Just because Ancient Egyptians were black does not condemn white people. It's fact. Get over it.

Clyde
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

NileValleyPeoples & Common Sense

If NVP had studied the articles in the links provided, those studies were done in mummies from the far SOUTHERN Egypt(Upper Egypt)- that is the region of part of Nubia-Sudan-Kemet, annexed by Egypt in 1521 B.C. - it stands to reason, there would be a high concentration of Black mummies there - again, his information also backs that the Northern(Lower Egypt) was NOT Black - in fact, Arab Semitic White - READ THE FULL ARTICLES - I have.Ancient Egyptians were Arab Semitic White, NOT the Black Nubians - do read my other answers.The BADARI,are considered to be a HOMOGENEOUSLY(from long term mixing) MIXED group of people, even backing what I have said - every one of his points have been sondly refuted at this link - read the article, and, the replies, as well. Are you aware that King Tut's DNA is WHITE(not NOT Western European,but Arab Semitic, White):

http://www.eutimes.net/2010/06/king-tuts-dna-is-western-european/#comments

"It's okay. Just because Ancient Egyptians were Arab Semitic White, does not condemn Black, or, any other, people. It's fact. Get over it."

http://naturescorner.wordpress.com/2008/12/13/where-the-ancient-egyptians-black-or-white/

Sit-Ab-Anu
Nov 29, 2008 5AM #

Excerpt from the Papyrus of Osiris Nesi-Am-Su, copy 300 BC:

"If any person from a foreign land, whether he be Negro, Ethiopian, or Syrian, shall remove this book, or any thief shall carry it off, may his body never draw near to Aaru; may he never be placed in the cool; may he never breath the breezes of the north wind; may neither son or daughter arise from his seed; may his name never be remembered on earth through his children; and may he never see the beams of the disk!"

Apparently, in 300 BC the construct of race was being debated since it is impossible to separate Negroes from Ethiopians from Syrians! This is the same race debate this blog is dealing with and it remains unchanged from the texts written by the Afrikan, Nesi-Am-Su!

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